Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2 - Page 14

Talek Krell · 2011-09-22, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

There will be solo rambos no matter what, but when you have teams, err excuse me, empires, then many people will naturally work together.

People will naturally work toward the same goal. That is not the same as working together. There are three "empires" in Planetside right now but the game is primarily composed of large groups of people who's most pronounced form of cooperation is not shooting each other. Much. They do not communicate with each other. They do not coordinate with each other. They do not function as part of a team unless the game railroads them into doing so.

Originally Posted by Raymac

Wow, professor. I'm glad you are here to tell me these things.

Well you seemed so sad not knowing, I'm glad I could help.

moosepoop · 2011-09-22, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

There will be solo rambos no matter what

i agree, that is true. but when you give a rambo more powerful tools, thats going to encourage him.

nothing wrong with soloing and going commando once in a while in planetside, but so far in ps1 soloers arent that overpowered (other than reavers hunting lone infantry). but having the ability to solo in a main battle tank is going to turn you into a one man killing machine. and thats not beneficial for this type of game.

if the devs are worried about casual gamers not liking the idea of coordinated vehicle play, they can use light tanks. make the light tanks interesting, have "oomph" , nice sound effects, it will be fine, players will like it. there is nothing wrong with one manning a balanced light tank. but a powerful battle tank is another matter.

if drivers find it boring just driving, well you can compromise and give the tank driver a small frontal machinegun, similar to the magrider driver's gun right now.

i think tanks shouldnt have less gunners, they need MORE gunners. juggernaught and raider are exciting and fun.

Raymac · 2011-09-22, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Talek Krell

People will naturally work toward the same goal. That is not the same as working together. There are three "empires" in Planetside right now but the game is primarily composed of large groups of people who's most pronounced form of cooperation is not shooting each other. Much. They do not communicate with each other. They do not coordinate with each other. They do not function as part of a team unless the game railroads them into doing so.

Well you seemed so sad not knowing, I'm glad I could help.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Outfits won't exist, and everyone will just be running around just shooting anything that moves. The game would be a hell of alot better if they take away any form of freedom and force the game to be an MMOFPD. (massive multiplayer online first person driver) In fact, why stop at vehicles? Remember Master Blaster in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome? Now THAT sounds like a good time. I mean I thought I liked to play shooters to shoot things, but that's just silly. I'll let you have the last word.

Talek Krell · 2011-09-23, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Remember Master Blaster in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome?

No.

Headrattle · 2011-09-25, 06:02 PM

fact: And this seems obvious to me. Drivers with large guns won't need gunners to get kills. Thus, you will see large tanks without gunners reaping havoc on the battlefield.

That is always how it has been. I remember lots of Magriders without gunners floating around and messing up infantry. If you are going to have a single player killing machine you need to make it weak. This is why the Lightning worked so well. If you wanted a powerful killing machine you needed to work with a gunner. That is what made it good, fun, and not over powered.

Also, BF 1942 (and on) vehicles sucked in my opinion. Just play the game, the guy who gets his tank first got lots of kills. In the end they had to counter that by making them weak. That isn't fun. I love driving the tank, and I don't want to man the gun. I want to drive, and have someone else man the gun. It is more interesting and fun that way.

I have officially lost interest in PS2.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

If you are going to have a single player killing machine you need to make it weak.

Step back for a second. Think about all the properties of a tank that make it "strong" and what it's goal is. Is its goal to kill infantry? Not really. The main cannon is more directed toward armored targets. So how can this be reflected in the gameplay.

What if the tank round moved relatively slowly through the air. Not painfully slowly. Now when a player in a tank shoots at another tank it's a large target that they can lead a little ways. When a tank shoots at an infantry unit from 100 meters away suddenly you find yourself strafing or sprinting out of the way. This coupled with a long reload time for a single shell decrease the chance of it being used to kill infantry.

To further this when you lower the handling of the vehicle you make it less likely to be used for running into people.

This brings us to the magrider which can strafe out of the way of rounds, has a raycasted bullet essentially for sniping infantry, and has high maneuverability completely breaking the normal balance of a tank. I won't go into details, since I've done that before, but things need to be changed so that all the tanks fit into a role of fighting other armored vehicles. If it's caught by itself with an infantry unit it needs to set up so that the infantry unit has nothing to fear really from a single tank. Either it strafes around or gets too close to the tank so it can't make a good shot. I digress since as I said I've discussed these changed in depth in other threads.

basti · 2011-09-25, 06:25 PM

Quite Drastic, considering you dont know anything about the power of the Main gun yet.

Guys, just chill, hmkay?

Aractain · 2011-09-25, 06:26 PM

I don't think the magrider has a pin-point gun anymore but the rest of the points still stand.

Good tank gameplay requires depth not "one man = weak" because all that equals is boring gameplay.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Aractain

I don't think the magrider has a pin-point gun anymore but the rest of the points still stand.

If they changed it then I missed it. I just went by this which I presumed was the main cannon firing.

Mastachief · 2011-09-25, 07:16 PM

Really not a fan of this.

Back in 2004 i had 2 rigs and two accounts i could drive and gun my own vanguard this was still challenging due to lag and having to use 2 screens.

However the battlefield model of tank fighting just isnt planetside.

I mean i will love that my outfit can pull and gun 80 tanks but its just gunna cause real issues in my opinion.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

I mean i will love that my outfit can pull and gun 80 tanks but its just gunna cause real issues in my opinion.

The game really rewards this teamwork. If you pull 80 tanks that's a lot of fire power. Same thing if an outfit pulls 80 Reavers. With 500 v 500 v 500 or more battles we're going to be seeing a lot of vehicles and infantry so 80 tanks isn't out the window. You might only need a few secondary gunners in that case.

// Edit also good luck getting 80 people to work together. The most I've ever been a part of was 40 people so we had 35 Reavers and some libs on Searhus (Wolfpack) and that was epic. 80 tanks would need AA support probably or they'll get bombed to death.

Mastachief · 2011-09-25, 07:41 PM

80 is at the extreme as we are a tiny outfit with 86 members, but our co-ordination in that situation would be segmented and of course we would have columns with AA too. However my first outfit had 800 active players at release and was no where near the largest. With a strong command structure and respect large number co-ordination is pretty simple.

Think the devil dogs had 1000's

BorisBlade · 2011-09-25, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by basti

Quite Drastic, considering you dont know anything about the power of the Main gun yet.

Guys, just chill, hmkay?

Its the main gun so its the most powerful gun you will prob get in the game, atleast at launch since its on a main battle tank.

The prob isnt even just the firepower tho. Its the complete abandonment of yet another core Planetside element. Its the only game that got vehicles right. Pilots only pilot, gunners just gun, that was the core design in almost every vehicle, except a couple to let the solo'ers have vehicles too, but those were much weaker than those with teamwork.

The vehicles felt like vehicles, in BF and now PS2, they are just buffs. Just powerups for more solo action. And this in turn will mean they will have to be much weaker much like tanks in BF. So they become boring throw away buffs. Vehicles that allow you to specialize in your role, aka gunner/driver are MUCH more interactive, and really feel like you are driving a vehicle, not just gettin a firepower and armor buff. And it encourages you to worth with others.

I for one have zero interest in these new tanks, i dont wanna drive and gun at the same time, nor do i honestly wanna man a secondary gun for some half ass driver who is focused on killing too. If he aint focused on his role of driving he will just get me killed. If all the vehicles are goin this route I really see no reason to play PS over any other shooter other than the scale, since every other aspect of PS1 has been changed or removed completely. And honestly i wont play a game like that for just that reason. There are too many other FPS's out there nowadays to waste time on one where the devs are out of touch with what makes the game different and good.

It is still fixable tho, the magrider needs a redo, but the other tanks are fine since they are actually still tanks and have turrets. There are no enter/exit animations so just add a pilot only slot, main gunner slot, secondary gunner slot. This brings the manpower more in line with what an MBT should be with its high firepower and armor. It would avoid the "third man" issue the prowler had because its secondary gun would actually be worth using, near mandatory in fact. So the tanks could actually serve as tanks and have much more armor since it requires more people/teamwork. They wouldnt be throwaway buffs and would feel like an actual tank. Just carry this on over to other vehicles. You then add in your lightnings and solo attack craft with appropriate changes/balance because they are a solo vehicle. That would be the best option to keep PS having its epic and unique vehicle fights which NO OTHER fps has, zero. They all use the solo style of vehicles and even with many of em around it just doesnt feel epic in the least, really feels just like power ups, not vehicles.

So take note mr higby, focus on gameplay, not serving the quick fix or serving the quick buck. If you focus on gameplay and what somethin will do to overall gameplay, the money will come (just look at blizzard and valve). If you focus on the quick buck you end up with a half ass game and just more of the usual dribble SoE is known for. Time to change the opinions of everyone and get PS2 right.

Zulthus · 2011-09-25, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

Its the main gun so its the most powerful gun you will prob get in the game, atleast at launch since its on a main battle tank.

The prob isnt even just the firepower tho. Its the complete abandonment of yet another core Planetside element. Its the only game that got vehicles right. Pilots only pilot, gunners just gun, that was the core design in almost every vehicle, except a couple to let the solo'ers have vehicles too, but those were much weaker than those with teamwork.

The vehicles felt like vehicles, in BF and now PS2, they are just buffs. Just powerups for more solo action. And this in turn will mean they will have to be much weaker much like tanks in BF. So they become boring throw away buffs. Vehicles that allow you to specialize in your role, aka gunner/driver are MUCH more interactive, and really feel like you are driving a vehicle, not just gettin a firepower and armor buff. And it encourages you to worth with others.

I for one have zero interest in these new tanks, i dont wanna drive and gun at the same time, nor do i honestly wanna man a secondary gun for some half ass driver who is focused on killing too. If he aint focused on his role of driving he will just get me killed. If all the vehicles are goin this route I really see no reason to play PS over any other shooter other than the scale, since every other aspect of PS1 has been changed or removed completely. And honestly i wont play a game like that for just that reason. There are too many other FPS's out there nowadays to waste time on one where the devs are out of touch with what makes the game different and good.

It is still fixable tho, the magrider needs a redo, but the other tanks are fine since they are actually still tanks and have turrets. There are no enter/exit animations so just add a pilot only slot, main gunner slot, secondary gunner slot. This brings the manpower more in line with what an MBT should be with its high firepower and armor. It would avoid the "third man" issue the prowler had because its secondary gun would actually be worth using, near mandatory in fact. So the tanks could actually serve as tanks and have much more armor since it requires more people/teamwork. They wouldnt be throwaway buffs and would feel like an actual tank. Just carry this on over to other vehicles. You then add in your lightnings and solo attack craft with appropriate changes/balance because they are a solo vehicle. That would be the best option to keep PS having its epic and unique vehicle fights which NO OTHER fps has, zero. They all use the solo style of vehicles and even with many of em around it just doesnt feel epic in the least, really feels just like power ups, not vehicles.

So take note mr higby, focus on gameplay, not serving the quick fix or serving the quick buck. If you focus on gameplay and what somethin will do to overall gameplay, the money will come (just look at blizzard and valve). If you focus on the quick buck you end up with a half ass game and just more of the usual dribble SoE is known for. Time to change the opinions of everyone and get PS2 right.

This post sums it up. PS is NOT Battlefield. It did vehicles right; drivers are meant to drive, and gunners are meant to gun. If you are one of the people that wants gunning and driving at the same time, hop in a lightning/reaver or go to Battlefield. Solo whoring in vehicles is NOT what Planetside needs to be. You made a really good point in saying that BF like vehicles where you drive/gun feels like buffs; it's just an exo-suit with much more armor and weaponry than your soldier. Doesn't require teamwork at all.

lobohotpants · 2011-09-25, 10:56 PM

Why does it have to be one or the other?

The most annoying thing to me while I was playing ps1 was to have the vanguard cert and nobody to gun. If my friends weren't on then there were random pickups. When there weren't random pickups....well I was useless. Believe me, it happens. Especially when you're behind the push and get to a newly captured base late. You're trying to join the fight but everyone has already caught a ride. It happened to me quite a few times.

Give me the option to gun when I don't have a choice and give me the choice to pick up a friend and concentrate on driving. Good design is always about giving the player a choice. I shouldn't be forced to gun and I shouldn't be forced not to gun.