Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2 - Page 14

Zulthus · 2011-09-25, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

Its the main gun so its the most powerful gun you will prob get in the game, atleast at launch since its on a main battle tank.

The prob isnt even just the firepower tho. Its the complete abandonment of yet another core Planetside element. Its the only game that got vehicles right. Pilots only pilot, gunners just gun, that was the core design in almost every vehicle, except a couple to let the solo'ers have vehicles too, but those were much weaker than those with teamwork.

The vehicles felt like vehicles, in BF and now PS2, they are just buffs. Just powerups for more solo action. And this in turn will mean they will have to be much weaker much like tanks in BF. So they become boring throw away buffs. Vehicles that allow you to specialize in your role, aka gunner/driver are MUCH more interactive, and really feel like you are driving a vehicle, not just gettin a firepower and armor buff. And it encourages you to worth with others.

I for one have zero interest in these new tanks, i dont wanna drive and gun at the same time, nor do i honestly wanna man a secondary gun for some half ass driver who is focused on killing too. If he aint focused on his role of driving he will just get me killed. If all the vehicles are goin this route I really see no reason to play PS over any other shooter other than the scale, since every other aspect of PS1 has been changed or removed completely. And honestly i wont play a game like that for just that reason. There are too many other FPS's out there nowadays to waste time on one where the devs are out of touch with what makes the game different and good.

It is still fixable tho, the magrider needs a redo, but the other tanks are fine since they are actually still tanks and have turrets. There are no enter/exit animations so just add a pilot only slot, main gunner slot, secondary gunner slot. This brings the manpower more in line with what an MBT should be with its high firepower and armor. It would avoid the "third man" issue the prowler had because its secondary gun would actually be worth using, near mandatory in fact. So the tanks could actually serve as tanks and have much more armor since it requires more people/teamwork. They wouldnt be throwaway buffs and would feel like an actual tank. Just carry this on over to other vehicles. You then add in your lightnings and solo attack craft with appropriate changes/balance because they are a solo vehicle. That would be the best option to keep PS having its epic and unique vehicle fights which NO OTHER fps has, zero. They all use the solo style of vehicles and even with many of em around it just doesnt feel epic in the least, really feels just like power ups, not vehicles.

So take note mr higby, focus on gameplay, not serving the quick fix or serving the quick buck. If you focus on gameplay and what somethin will do to overall gameplay, the money will come (just look at blizzard and valve). If you focus on the quick buck you end up with a half ass game and just more of the usual dribble SoE is known for. Time to change the opinions of everyone and get PS2 right.

This post sums it up. PS is NOT Battlefield. It did vehicles right; drivers are meant to drive, and gunners are meant to gun. If you are one of the people that wants gunning and driving at the same time, hop in a lightning/reaver or go to Battlefield. Solo whoring in vehicles is NOT what Planetside needs to be. You made a really good point in saying that BF like vehicles where you drive/gun feels like buffs; it's just an exo-suit with much more armor and weaponry than your soldier. Doesn't require teamwork at all.

Aractain · 2011-09-25, 06:26 PM

I don't think the magrider has a pin-point gun anymore but the rest of the points still stand.

Good tank gameplay requires depth not "one man = weak" because all that equals is boring gameplay.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Aractain

I don't think the magrider has a pin-point gun anymore but the rest of the points still stand.

If they changed it then I missed it. I just went by this which I presumed was the main cannon firing.

Mastachief · 2011-09-25, 07:16 PM

Really not a fan of this.

Back in 2004 i had 2 rigs and two accounts i could drive and gun my own vanguard this was still challenging due to lag and having to use 2 screens.

However the battlefield model of tank fighting just isnt planetside.

I mean i will love that my outfit can pull and gun 80 tanks but its just gunna cause real issues in my opinion.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mastachief

I mean i will love that my outfit can pull and gun 80 tanks but its just gunna cause real issues in my opinion.

The game really rewards this teamwork. If you pull 80 tanks that's a lot of fire power. Same thing if an outfit pulls 80 Reavers. With 500 v 500 v 500 or more battles we're going to be seeing a lot of vehicles and infantry so 80 tanks isn't out the window. You might only need a few secondary gunners in that case.

// Edit also good luck getting 80 people to work together. The most I've ever been a part of was 40 people so we had 35 Reavers and some libs on Searhus (Wolfpack) and that was epic. 80 tanks would need AA support probably or they'll get bombed to death.

Mastachief · 2011-09-25, 07:41 PM

80 is at the extreme as we are a tiny outfit with 86 members, but our co-ordination in that situation would be segmented and of course we would have columns with AA too. However my first outfit had 800 active players at release and was no where near the largest. With a strong command structure and respect large number co-ordination is pretty simple.

Think the devil dogs had 1000's

lobohotpants · 2011-09-25, 10:56 PM

Why does it have to be one or the other?

The most annoying thing to me while I was playing ps1 was to have the vanguard cert and nobody to gun. If my friends weren't on then there were random pickups. When there weren't random pickups....well I was useless. Believe me, it happens. Especially when you're behind the push and get to a newly captured base late. You're trying to join the fight but everyone has already caught a ride. It happened to me quite a few times.

Give me the option to gun when I don't have a choice and give me the choice to pick up a friend and concentrate on driving. Good design is always about giving the player a choice. I shouldn't be forced to gun and I shouldn't be forced not to gun.

Zulthus · 2011-09-25, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by lobohotpants

Why does it have to be one or the other?

The most annoying thing to me while I was playing ps1 was to have the vanguard cert and nobody to gun. If my friends weren't on then there were random pickups. When there weren't random pickups....well I was useless. Believe me, it happens. Especially when you're behind the push and get to a newly captured base late. You're trying to join the fight but everyone has already caught a ride. It happened to me quite a few times.

Give me the option to gun when I don't have a choice and give me the choice to pick up a friend and concentrate on driving. Good design is always about giving the player a choice. I shouldn't be forced to gun and I shouldn't be forced not to gun.

Select a solo oriented vehicle.

Sirisian · 2011-09-25, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by lobohotpants

Give me the option to gun when I don't have a choice and give me the choice to pick up a friend and concentrate on driving. Good design is always about giving the player a choice. I shouldn't be forced to gun and I shouldn't be forced not to gun.

Exactly. That's what I've been advocating by allowing the driver to release the main cannon to the secondary when the secondary needs to use the AV.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Select a solo oriented vehicle.

Sounds like you'd like a Galaxy more than a tank really. It's a lot more passive and you can concentrate on driving.

Zulthus · 2011-09-25, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Exactly. That's what I've been advocating by allowing the driver to release the main cannon to the secondary when the secondary needs to use the AV.

Sounds like you'd like a Galaxy more than a tank really. It's a lot more passive and you can concentrate on driving.

Slap some nice guns on that thing for my teammates and why not? I can't solo killwhore with it, so it's superior to controlling the main gun on a tank.

Aractain · 2011-09-25, 11:21 PM

Like aircraft, tanks have at least 2 spots, even if the driver guns one. (Which I like).

SniperSteve · 2011-09-26, 12:01 AM

Two Points:

1) A MBT is a specialized item. It is not something that a rookie is going to pick up within the first hours of play. Since this is the case, I think we can discard the scenario where a new player gets the MBT and wants to own with it but can't and gets frustrated because he needs a gunner. (solo vehicles fill that role)

2) I think MBTs are a great way to build teamwork. If you can do almost everything yourself, why bother with your outfit/squad. Creating game mechanics that requires teamwork is a great way to strengthen the community and give you a 'place' in the game.

SniperSteve · 2011-09-26, 12:13 AM

I also came across this comment in regard to the current PS2 model of Driver Gunner:

"So far it sounds like MBTs will be unshielded BFRs on wheels... do not want."

Kalbuth · 2011-09-26, 07:37 AM

It's probably been proposed before in this thread, I've not read all the pages, why not make the control of main gun by the driver an optional kit available through a certification (if any change can be made at this point, ofc) ?
And this "driver gun control" kit would weaken the main gun power / vehicle armor by, say.... 20% ?
And you can up this through your skill, up to the point where a fully skilled tanker would be of the same power solo than a basic tanker would be with a gunner.
This way, you have both options, you reward teamwork without being too drastic on it

Talek Krell · 2011-09-26, 01:38 PM

Things along those lines have been proposed, but the topic has split into enough threads that it's hard to keep track of. It's a matter of balance, but the penalties you've proposed would probably need to be steeper, and never cancelled. The idea is that 2 people in one tank should, at the very least, be as powerful as two people in two tanks. Personally I'd rather just have the lightning back for the solo crowd.